Thinking of HNZ while walking

How should non-HNZ students be put into groups?

  • One group: "Other Students" (Beauxbatons & Durmstrang groups removed)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Stay as it is: Beauxbatons & Durmstrang have special groups, other schools' students in "Magical"

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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Rhianne Clivey

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I think this is the first time I made a suggestion here so I am not sure if this is necessary or not. As I am off and on the site for the past years, I am not sure if someone had suggested this. No need to worry, this is just a very simple one.So here it goes:

We all know we have different little group icon thingy or badges, I forgot the term graphic people use for this - the icons below our avatars that indicate our group, including Beaubaxtons and Dumrstrang. I have noticed that we already have a couple of characters as transfer students from Hogwarts Scotland and Ilvermorny but then again, they will be sorted to their houses. We also have those characters who are graduates already but they could be sorted to Magical. I think it would be better to have icons for these schools dedicated to characters who are still students there just like Beaubaxtons and Durmstrang.

Another suggestion that came to my mind while walking is this:

We can make adult characters that can be graduates of some schools but when we plan to let them land jobs on Ministry - whether Auror or just an employee - the application would require NEWT marks which we need to make up. This would be advantageous but loses the spontaneity of the overall development of the character. I think it would be nicer if we have a system-generated/ online NEWT exam for these characters. An exam they can take to acquire NEWT marks since they are characters made directly as adult ones.

If you made it this far, thank you for reading and considering my suggestions. :D :D
 

Nicolas King

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Hey Arle,

Thanks for taking the time to make these suggestions, and sorry for the delay in replying!

For your first suggestion, you may call us euro-centric, or the site being a little bit anachronistic (when we made these groups, we only knew about three schools, really), but we don't want to add groups (or forums, because we all know if we had groups people would want forums next!) for the schools that JKR is revealing (and will continue to reveal for some time). We've also never had a group for Hogwarts Scotland, or a forum for that. If they site really wanted to give up either Beauxbatons or Durmstang as a special group with a school forum, and wanted to swap it out for one of the newer schools, we can talk about that, but the simplest way of keeping things sane, we think, is by keeping them pretty narrow to two other schools that have special groups and special forums. This doesn't prevent people from saying their characters went to or are going to other schools, as you've noted, just helps us keep the site a little bit more focused.

Your second suggestion is something we could offer in the future depending on how/if Make-Up NEWTs develop. However, the reality is they could never be mandatory - people will sometimes (perhaps usually) want to just develop a character, say what grades they got, and plow ahead. I think that has to be okay with us. However, another thing we're discussing is locking in a character's NEWTs once they apply for their first job that requires NEWTs (by adding them to the gradebook) and then if they want to edit one of those grades at a later date, they would need to make use of Make-Up NEWTs just like former students would have to. (Again, pending professors developing these exams for us.)

Let me know if I didn't explain something very well and you'd like clarification, or if I misunderstood something. :)
 

Danielle Corelli

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Thanks for considering these,Nick!

Now that I read your explanation on the first one,I now got the bigger picture. Might as well keep things narrowed down as you have said. :shifty:

For the second one,I read the link that you included and from what I understood (then again,correct me if I am mistaken :D ) is the make up NEWTS that was mentioned was having a site?/forum? for characters to go back to like a school of sorts. What I was thinking along the line was like a quiz of sorts,a generated one,almost similar when we have our sorting where we can answer and submit and thus generate NEWTS marks. ;)
 

Nicolas King

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While that may have been what Zach was suggesting, Cyndi's response suggests makeup exams for people to alter their NEWT grades, which sounds like what you're suggesting, too.
Importantly, when/if these (which are already planned) come into place, they will not be as simple as the sorting quiz, and they'll be a little annoying to do, because we still want to encourage people to either go through the school and do the work there, or to otherwise develop well-rounded well-thought-out characters and not change their grades willy-nilly if they didn't go to HNZ.
 

Wren Louise

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I think this has been suggested before but I can't remember what the response was so I'll just piggy back off of of this post.

Was it ever on the cards to have an Other Students group? If it was, but was knocked back, I'd like to just reiterate how useful it would be. Judging by the list of students recorded by Jesse on the Other Students list, there's certainly enough students to justify the addition, including those who haven't posted in the list. I'd like to differentiate between students of other schools and the general magical group for roleplaying purposes, so it's easier to identify them and set up rps.

It wouldn't look out of place on the forums, I think, seeing as there is an Other Employees list that also gets a lot of use, and I think it would be a neat and tidy way to have a place for these young people. The forum's basically built on students, so it makes sense that there'd be more and more in an Other Students list, just as there's more students coming to HNZ.

It's a trend worth encouraging, in my opinion, to get those creative juices flowing and exploring the world in and outside of New Zealand.
 

Esme Lancaster

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I think I've mentioned it earlier, but I don't recall the conversation too well.
I'm all for an Other Students group, and it means they wouldn't really all need their own forum, though I wouldn't want the potential for Durmstrang/Beauxbatons to collapse into it, for Quidditch purposes.
 

November Albertson

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Esme Lancaster said:
I think I've mentioned it earlier, but I don't recall the conversation too well.
I'm all for an Other Students group, and it means they wouldn't really all need their own forum, though I wouldn't want the potential for Durmstrang/Beauxbatons to collapse into it, for Quidditch purposes.
I think, seeing as there is an Other Employees list that also gets a lot of use, and I think it would be a neat and tidy way to have a place for these young people.

So my idea cause I like what's been said and I've quoted here^, would be:
Have Beauxbatons, Durmstrang, and Other Students along with our Hogwarts Student Houses.

If a sort of reason for that is needed more than what the two above have said, we've had these two other schools for a long time, people do invest in them and use them, especially Beauxbatons recently for Quidditch, I don't think people are ready to get rid of them. But a group for Other Students would be used and I think very appreciated by the board. It would separate students of magic out from minors and adults that aren't in another group and are just piled into the Magical pink group right now.

Maybe just like how we have an Auror group, Beauxbatons and Durmstrang(auror)* stay as groups but then Other Students(ministry)* is brought forward. Since Auror's are technically ministry officials, they just have a different degree of requirement to be so. Not saying we need to require anything of Beauxbatons/Durmstrang vs. Other Students (besides the fact if you have a student in one of those two schools you should try to use that forum area while they are in school vs Other students it's just to put student aged people in a group together for neatness).


*This are just relational to put in a picture of things we already do on the board to separate different groups, I know that the situations are exactly the same and I'm not trying to say I think of them the same, it's just used as an example because I think it fits here.

I'm also not suggesting a special forum for the Other Students group, I don't think that would be needed, just the actual group itself I believe would be appropriate.
 

Nicolas King

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Hi everybody,

A poll has been appended to this topic. Please read below before voting.
It does not make sense to have Beauxbatons, Durmstrang, and "Other Students." Yes, Aurors get their own group - but they also have their own private forum for planning things - and Aurors are usually pivotal in any site-wide plots. Sorting them out makes practical sense.
There's also the reality that even having an "Other Students" group does not help you find another 4th year student from Salem (or even another student from Salem) - you'd either need to click through every profile in this new group, or you'd have to refer to the list that Jesse maintains for us. Whether or not "Other Students" is made, that list kind of has to remain. (This is similar to how "Other Employees" doesn't help you find your character's coworkers in the Italian Ministry of Magic.)

So, the choices to move ahead as we see it are:
Option 1: Other Students
We create an "Other Students" group for all school-aged magical students in other schools apart from HNZ. All other schools. Beauxbatons and Durmstrang are collapsed into this group, and the topics in their forums are dumped into the Europe forum. This does not impact any inter-school Quidditch. Some sort of game may still continue.

Option 2: Status Quo
Beauxbatons & Durmstrang remain as distinct groups, with distinct forums, and "Other Students" is not created.

I personally believe that option 2 is beneficial to more people, but if we'd prefer to move ahead as a site and abandon those specialized groups (we are focused on NZ, after all) and just have one group that all non-HNZ students can be lumped into, the admin are happy to comply.

Once again, no matter what, don't worry about Quidditch! ;)
 

Wren Louise

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Before I vote (and we all know what that's going to be, since the choices are now something we didn't ask for, and something we didn't want), I'd just like to reiterate that the example was supposed to be Ministry and Other Employees, not Ministry and Aurors. Beauxbatons and Durmstrang have a place because of their relationship with HNZ- Triwizard and Quidditch. All other education formats deserve their own group for the same reasons that Other Employees have theirs.

I'm openly writing this for my own benefit because this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, but it's worth saying that this poll is pointless because the results are predictable- nobody, not even me, wants an Other Students category badly enough to lose Beauxbatons and Durmstrang, because they shouldn't have been put together in the first place.

I've just moved house and I am without internet until the 10th-11th of October, so anyone who'd like to discuss this further can PM me.
 

Nicolas King

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Professor Wren Louise said:
Before I vote (and we all know what that's going to be, since the choices are now something we didn't ask for, and something we didn't want), I'd just like to reiterate that the example was supposed to be Ministry and Other Employees, not Ministry and Aurors. Beauxbatons and Durmstrang have a place because of their relationship with HNZ- Triwizard and Quidditch. All other education formats deserve their own group for the same reasons that Other Employees have theirs.
The logic statement would look as follows:
As ministry is to other employees, so HNZ student groups would be to "other students".

We don't have NZ Ministry, Aus Ministry, UK Ministry and "other employees" - we just have NZ ministry and "other employees".

Groups that are central to HNZ itself (HNZ and its ministry) get specific groups with subdivision within them (the school being the largest example of this, obviously). Groups that are ancillary are consolidated.

The Auror's point was to Steph's post, which uses Aurors as the example.

There is no reason except for history that Beaux and Durm are the Quidditch or TWT schools for HNZ. We can keep that (status quo) or move to a bold new future (other students). Frankly, I don't care what direction we go - but there's no having your cake and eating it here. There's either a special group for all non-HNZ students (and truly all non-HNZ students go there) or we just say we're doing what we've always done, not some hybrid strategy.
 

Professor Monty Pendleton

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I'm curious as to why some people are against the idea of collapsing Beauxbatons and Durmstrang into an 'Other Students' group. It does seem quite odd to me to have 'Other Students' but then not to collapse the other two groups into it. And if inter-school Quidditch would still be able to function, what do you lose by collapsing the groups, besides the option to choose between being blue or brown?

I've always quite liked the idea of more groups, and more colours, so I can understand where people might be coming from if this is the argument; but from a logical point of view, it just wouldn't make sense to have Beauxbatons, Durmstrang, and Other Schools existing simultaneously. That would be akin to adding a 'Broomstick Maker' group, or an 'Owl Trainer' group, even though 'Other Employees' already existed, and those two professions could easily be collapsed into it.

I think there is a certain amount of sentimental value attached to the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons groups, which is why it is proving difficult to let go of; but I also think that change is not necessarily a bad thing, and that after a little while, we'd get used to it (the same way I hardly think about the old 'Member' and 'Family' groups any more. It was weird at first, but you adapt).

As Nick said, Aurors need their own group because they are given their own permissions (Aurors are allowed to see a private forum that not all Ministry members should be seeing). Durmstrang and Beauxbatons, on the other hand, do not have any permissions that would prevent them from being collapsed into Other Students. I imagine they did at one point, for the Tri-Wizard Tournament, when visiting students needed to RP on the HNZ school grounds, but that's not the case any more. And had that not been necessary, I doubt the groups would even have been made in the first place. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :lol: )

Which just makes me wonder why we're so afraid to collapse these groups! It would be far, far neater and more logical. Is it just because we're so fond of the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons groups? Or because we like to have a diverse range of colours on our trackers? Or something more important than I'm overlooking? I think it's sentimental value, like Steph said. When you remove Quidditch from the equation (because Nick has said inter-school Quidditch would still be possible), sentimental value is all that really remains.

But I think the change would be a positive one. I get that it'd be weird for a while, and maybe we'd miss those groups, but now that so many other schools have been revealed to exist, it really does seem like the best solution. It's hard to let go of something you're fond of, even when it's no longer practical, but to keep it there in addition to implementing something new JUST because you'd miss it doesn't quite seem fair either.

I can totally see and relate to both sides of this, but those are my thoughts. :D If the majority would prefer option 2 because of the whole sentimental value thing, then I understand that, but I also understand the stance for not wanting all 3 groups to exist simultaneously, and think that the choices we've been offered are fair.

I probably won't vote, because I'd rather the majority of the site was happy, and my vote would probably be option 1 =)) but I just felt the need to write my thoughts down. Thanks for reading my rambles!
 

Wren Louise

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I don't agree with the merging of the groups, but in hindsight it's the lesser of two evils so I would like to change my vote to the group merger, if the poll could be changed to reflect that.
 

Arvo Tuuri

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I'll start off with saying that I will be voting for the entire collapse of all students into the Other Students group, because I feel that the benefits are worth it, and I don't care about Beauxbatons or Durmstrang being individual forums, groups, etc.

However, I know that, simply from reading this topic alone, there are plenty of people that do not agree with this, and I completely support them.

I'm not sure where this concept of a 'hybrid strategy' is coming from. The idea was as follows: Other Students group pls. Lots of use for it. etc. It was specifically stated that they did not want Beauxbatons and Durmstrang to be combined into the Other Students - at first for Quidditch (which I understand has been removed from the equation). This isn't about having our cake and eating it, this is about the fact that this poll is addressing two options that were not asked for, nor desired by those that spoke up for the change in the first place. The suggestion was for an Other Students to be added, without the removal of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang.

I'm also struggling to see the problem in having an Other Students group. It may not help with deciding rps because a HS student and a Ilvermorny student would be in the same group without even the assistance of year groups, I agree (and I am not suggesting we add these, because that is a lot of groups that aren't being asked for). Is it super necessary for an Other Students group? No, it isn't. The students fit nicely into Family, Beauxbatons and Durmie are doing their thing in their own forums, whatever - doesn't matter. However, why does it have to be super necessary? Adding one group to the board will not harm anything, nor will having that group being independent of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang harm anything either. The argument of this snowballing into an individual forum is irrelevant, really, because it couldn't happen. You couldn't have Ilvermorny and HS schools rping in the same forum, simply because their geographic location is incompatible. The concept of having individual forums for each new school JK decides to add is just silly and would genuinely detract from HNZ's focus - Hogwarts New Zealand.

I don't see the harm in adding a Other Students to the board, and having that be independent of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang. I don't know why it seems to be such a big deal to have this group added, and I certainly don't see why the original request is now seen as an irrelevant and outdated option without further communication with the people that suggested it, especially when the options available now don't at all appease anyone that wanted the change in the first place.
 

Esme Lancaster

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Nicolas King said:
There's also the reality that even having an "Other Students" group does not help you find another 4th year student from Salem (or even another student from Salem) - you'd either need to click through every profile in this new group, or you'd have to refer to the list that Jesse maintains for us.
It doesn't help anyone find a student from Salem because it isn't a school :r

I don't know what I want from this poll. I'd love an Other Students group, but I am sentimentally attached to both Durmstrang and Beauxbatons, so I'm undecided. However, if Beaux and Durm get collapsed, I'm happy to have them added to the Other Students list, which may even help with finding the graduation dates more easily at the end of every IC year.
 

Professor Cyndi Kingsley

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Professor Wren Louise said:
I think this has been suggested before but I can't remember what the response was so I'll just piggy back off of of this post.
Esme Lancaster said:
I think I've mentioned it earlier, but I don't recall the conversation too well.
Yes, this has been discussed before: http://hogwarts.nz/topic/11593435/
It's actually what led to the list we keep referencing.
It also helped guide the options we're offering you now.
 

Wren Louise

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Esme Lancaster said:
I'm happy to have them added to the Other Students list, which may even help with finding the graduation dates more easily at the end of every IC year.
That's a good point. I'm coming round to the idea of an Other Students group that includes Beaux and Durm.
 

Justin Cliffeton

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I voted for a complete merger. It's what I've wanted for a long time. :)
 

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Okay, I understand Beauxbaton's quidditch team has been said to be taken out of the equation regarding this poll - but what will collapsing the school into an other student's group actually mean for the team? As an invested member of that team I feel like I'd need that clarified before I committed to a vote, just for the sake of making an informed decision (as this is my only real point of conflict between the two options).
 

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From what I understand, nothing will happen to the Quidditch team. Changing the group will not dissolve it.
 

Justin Cliffeton

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Aurora Night said:
Okay, I understand Beauxbaton's quidditch team has been said to be taken out of the equation regarding this poll - but what will collapsing the school into an other student's group actually mean for the team? As an invested member of that team I feel like I'd need that clarified before I committed to a vote, just for the sake of making an informed decision (as this is my only real point of conflict between the two options).
Nick said quite a few times in his post that Quidditch teams will not be affected at all. :p
 

Merrill Piper

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I am definitely for a merger into an Other Students group, but I don't understand why that would have to mean completely getting rid of the separate school forums. I think it's very handy to be able to separate the topics that happen in, and outside a school. With all the new information coming out I was actually hoping we could create forums for some of the more popular schools(Ilvermorny being the first that comes to mind).
 

Nicolas King

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Merrill Piper said:
With all the new information coming out I was actually hoping we could create forums for some of the more popular schools(Ilvermorny being the first that comes to mind).
Which is precisely what we said we would not do at the start of this conversation. JKR will create infinite number of schools for infinite number of cases, we're not expanding forums with every whim of JKR (or every whim the board latches on to). A year ago there was even the suggestion, by members, to remove the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang forums for their infrequent use (and redundancy - those roleplays could easily go in "Europe" - we're focused on HNZ here, after all!). I'm fine with keeping Beauxbatons and Durmstrang for posterity/sentimentality, but not expanding beyond what we can reasonably use and keep active.
Esme Lancaster said:
Nicolas King said:
There's also the reality that even having an "Other Students" group does not help you find another 4th year student from Salem (or even another student from Salem) - you'd either need to click through every profile in this new group, or you'd have to refer to the list that Jesse maintains for us.
It doesn't help anyone find a student from Salem because it isn't a school :r
Our graduation list disagrees. ;)
Things RPed on the site are HNZ canon unless otherwise indicated. "Salem" existed before JKR started spouting schools.
Professor Wren Louise said:
I don't agree with the merging of the groups, but in hindsight it's the lesser of two evils so I would like to change my vote to the group merger, if the poll could be changed to reflect that.
Polls can't be edited by admin - what kind of havoc could I wreak if they could be?!
 

Nicolas King

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Professor Arvo Tuuri said:
The idea was as follows: Other Students group pls. Lots of use for it. etc. It was specifically stated that they did not want Beauxbatons and Durmstrang to be combined into the Other Students - at first for Quidditch (which I understand has been removed from the equation). This isn't about having our cake and eating it, this is about the fact that this poll is addressing two options that were not asked for, nor desired by those that spoke up for the change in the first place. The suggestion was for an Other Students to be added, without the removal of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang.
Ok - if you want an answer to the suggestion that was posited: No.
No, we're not adding another group to the roster for "Other Students" and then splitting out Ilvermorny when it has equal students to the Beaux and Durm groups (because that's the next suggestion, just like an HS group has been a suggestion consistently in the past; and see above - people would want new forums, too). So "no" - things stay the same.

However, we decided instead of just saying "no" we'd say "Yes, if we collapse" or "No, and things stay" and let you guys decide what you'd prefer. Because the suggestion as-is was a no-go from an admin point of view, and I hate to say to say it but it's as simple as that. Sometimes we make unpopular calls and that's good for the site. Sometimes we've make popular decisions and they're bad for the site. All sorts of things inbetween, too, but this time we put it to a vote because while we're not saying yes to the suggestion unedited, we're open to a version of it and willing to do what more people would prefer in this instance - which we felt was fair. If you'd prefer the simple "no" next time, we'll take that into consideration.
 

November Albertson

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November Albertson said:
*This are just relational to put in a picture of things we already do on the board to separate different groups, I know that the situations are exactly the same and I'm not trying to say I think of them the same, it's just used as an example because I think it fits here.
Look ^ I even said I knew the whole Ministry/Auror/Ministry Officials wasn't the best example xD So yes it was just the best way I could use on the site to describe what I thought would be a sort of compromise. Sorry to have brought about confusion( o_O ) with that..but I'm glad we've finally gotten an ultimatum from it!

That said, I looked back my post earlier today, surprised no one had responded to it and then thought about it again. I honestly don't see the need to have the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang groups any longer. This is coming from a person who has very fond memories of having threads in Durmstrang years ago with people I would not have otherwise rped with as we didn't have match ups in HNZ at the time. But, I feel like with the unveiling of other schools and having students who went to the school in Salem (as that somehow came onto the board prior to JKR naming an American school) I think it would have been neater to have that student in a group dedicated for students. I know people might think throwing them all in might be messy but we can still do many things with the students. I think also it will lead to more cases of maybe forming a Quidditch team outside of Beauxbatons if enough students attend another school(maybe?).

I also agree with Nick on this point now. It comes to a point where we can only ask for so many groups. This site is meant to focus on this school in New Zealand not the numerous other schools JKR can and will create in the wizardry world. I think lumping all the other students into one group is the best way to keep focus on HNZ while giving us the chance to have students go to other schools. This plus the list that is maintain will be good for the site I think. A student can still be a Durmstrang student inside the Other Student group, I guess I'm not that attach to either school not having students in them right now but I think my vote would still be the same either way.

Can I also vote the other students be this color? Other Students xD Kidding, you lovely admins can discuss the right color for the new group if it wins out in votes. I just thought we didn't have enough green groups on the site :r
 
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